How Shame Turns a Trigger Into a Spiral w/ Frank Spinelli EP 138

Most of us have been there. You see a text you don't like, and suddenly you're spiraling. You're checking the pa- your partner's phone, picking a fight maybe, withdrawing, accusing, all of the things we do. And even as it's happening, We go, "Oh, I hate that I'm doing this. I don't like the fact that I'm doing this.

I feel crazy. I feel broken." Like something is fundamentally wrong with you or your feelings of jealousy in the first place. But what if that shame spiral is actually something that can help you? What if it's pointing you towards something real that you need? So, our guest today is Dr. Frank Spinelli, a physician and author whose new book, The Shame Compass, teaches us how to read shame as not proof that we're broken-

but as information. So welcome, Dr. Spinelli. Uh, thank you for having me. Yeah, I was talking to you before we started recording that shame is a big thing that shows up here. So first, maybe you can give us a official or non-official distinction between guilt and shame, right? Because there's guilt and then there's shame.

What's the difference? So great question to start off the bat, because it's very important to distinguish those two because we experience both. So guilt is I did something wrong and I feel bad about that. And so it's usually, uh, attached to some sort of action or activity or thing you might have said, um, which could be good or bad.

Shame is an inherent belief that I am a bad person. Mm. I don't deserve anything good, and everything that goes wrong in my life is inherently because I am a bad person. And so it- there really is no attachment to anything other than what you are telling yourself. So that's the big differentiator. So it feels like almost it's this general underlying thing that you just kind of feel all the time?

Mm. Well, usually it occurs mostly with people who have had and/or suffered some sort of trauma. Mm-hmm. So you mentioned earlier, you know, you're checking the phone or you might have be- been, uh, in an, in a relationship where there was infidelity or you may have been abused as a child or even abused as an adult with a partner.

That sets the stage of asking yourself, "Why is this happening to me?" And that's the trap. Mm-hmm. I, I deserve this. I'm doing something to provoke this. It all rests on your shoulder. And for years, personally, you know, we might as well say or for your audience that we're going to be talking about different forms of abuse.

But certainly I experienced abuse as a child, and that's part of the basis for the book. But what I found is that that was the question that I ruminated over and over again- Mm ... is why is this happening to me? And unfortunately, and this is pretty important, is that when you do suffer from a trauma- Most people will live in the present trying to go back to that trauma or reliving that trauma to correct it.

So for example, if I had an experience as a child with a parent that abused me or neglected me, or I was sexually abused or physically abused, I may as an adult want to replay or revisit that relationship with adult relationships like a husband or a wife and sort of try to wrong-the-wrong. And that's the trap, because we feel we need to correct this in our minds when in fact it's really just pointing us towards us something that we need to identify.

And I think what most people when they go to therapy, oftentimes they feel they need to get past the shame. Yeah. Just get over it. Move on. If I hear move on one more time- ... I'm going to say it just, it's not that easy. You know, there is no moving on. And, and sadly, and why I wrote the book is because the shame doesn't go away.

It's learning how to interpret it, learning how to be fluent and understanding what it's telling you. And when in actuality, whenever we're being activated in the present, it's important for us to learn how to step out of the situation and say, "Okay," checking in with ourselves, and I created that framework of, "What's going on with me?

Why is this activating me?" And this could be somebody like a boss, for example. Mm. Or your relative or some s- you know, other mother at school, where you're just saying to yourself, "Wait a minute, I'm really getting triggered by the way this person's talking to me. What is it this is trying to tell me?" Not, "This is, this is what happens to me.

I'm just a bad person, and I deserve this." Thank you for the explanation of the difference. I think that's fantastic. I want to make sure I understand what you're saying. So when you're saying we, we sometimes as adults get in a relationship and then we're trying to sort of relive or readdress, I can't remember- Mm

the word that you used exactly, this relationship or this thing that happened to us in that relationship. Can you talk a little bit more about that? I want to make sure I understand what you mean there. So oftentimes when people are in the present and I'm working with them and we're working through maybe a past trauma, they will say things like, um, you know, "I, I can't do this," or, "I don't really deserve to be happy."

And I'm s- And I always go back and think, who is that voice? Who is that person? And what we do is we explore who that voice is because that, that voice in your head that is telling you these things is an unreliable narrator. This is the voice that tells you thoughts. And I love this statistic, although I can't corroborate it, but I still like saying it.

That we, we have thousands and tens of thousands of thoughts a day. Mm. And we repeat, can you imagine, 95% of them the next day. We just ruminate over the same things. So it's very important for us when we're hearing that voice in our head to say, "Wait a minute, those are thoughts. They're not facts.

What are the facts? The facts are I'm a, I'm a good person. I'm a, I'm a wife and a mother. I take care of my family." It's important for us to, uh, ta- talk to ourself and parent ourselves. But when I think about that voice, it isn't inherent in a person. It is somehow related to something someone taught them when they were younger or in a, maybe in a early relationship.

Mm. Typically, it's a parent or a teacher. Certainly, it could be in an early relationship- Mm ... especially when you were saying earlier perhaps a boyfriend that cheated on them and really scarred them in a way that later on they bring it back into their present by saying, "Yeah, that person was right." And that becomes the voice that tells you, "I don't deserve this," or, "I'm not good," or, "I am broken"- Yeah

which is not true. Man, why is it so easy for us to, like, believe that, you know? We believe- Yeah ... like, I'm believing this thought. And even just taking thoughts in general of, oh, if I have a thought, it's almost like, oh, I believe that thought because I had the thought. Right. Yeah. Instead of, I just don't feel like maybe w- We're not challenging them enough I, uh, we, we don't challenge ourselves, and that's the work.

When we say, "What's the work?" The work is actually teasing it all out. It's very easy to say, "Ugh, you know, I, I got cheated on again." Well, you're, you're, you're a horrible girlfriend, you're a horrible wife. Mm-hmm. It makes more sense for us to believe we are inherently bad when there's a series of traumas because it's just easier for us to accept that because that voice is in our head.

It takes a lot of work, and I'm saying a lot of work, for, I, I talk about this in the book, anchoring yourself in the four Ps. Pause. The power of the pause is something everyone should do. I don't care who your audience is, everyone should learn how to practice the pause. And you can do this in real life.

You don't have to wait for you to be activated. So for example, the next time you're talking to someone like yourself, I'm going to listen, and when you end your last sentence, I'm not gonna jump and respond. I'm going to wait a couple of seconds, and I might lean in, and I'm going to think about what I say. This will prepare you for when you're in that experience where you're feeling activated, that you don't jump to re- to activate or respond.

So pause, stay present in the moment. Check in with yourself. "What's going on here? Why am I feeling activated all of a sudden? I know this." Right. Stay present. Think of not only staying present, but you want to pause, be present, and really think of what is the possibilities that can happen when you stay present.

It's very important because oftentimes we're, we're so quick to respond or quick to defend. Yeah. And I think there, there is just a lot of power in being pause and stay present, and then just reflecting on, "What's going on with me?" And then you can see that there is the possibility of how to move forward.

But again, it's easier said than done, and I'm sure a lot of people are thinking, "Yeah, I wish I could do that," because when you're in a conversation you become very emotional, and the emotion overrides the logic of, "Okay, I need to just pause here." Well, I love the advice that you give of doing it outside the moment.

Like, it doesn't have to be the thing- Mm-hmm. Yeah ... that you usually jump off, you know, jump off about. You can practice it with everything. Like, it doesn't even have to be that you're upset. Just even practicing that pause- Yeah ... in everything so that your body and your brain get used to, "Well, this is what I do I pause after someone else speaks, right?

E- and see, I'm doing it again. I'm ready to jump right on your sentence. Yeah. But it, it, it's really, it, I think it's a value I found this was working for... There was a particular doctor that I used to work with, really big personality, really great credentials, and maybe I felt a little, like, intimidated by him.

Mm. And whenever he spoke, I just clammed up, and I was thinking, "Who is he representing?" You know, "And why am I feeling this way?" And I remember there was a moment when he was talking to me, and I'm doing the, the four Ps, and I'm like, "Pause. Just listen, Frank. Ponder what is happening in this situation. Stay present in this moment."

And when he ended the sentence, he goes, "Are you listening to me?" And, "I am. I mean, I'm going to need a minute, just a s- couple of seconds to think about a good answer." And I think when you allow yourself permission, and maybe that's the fifth P- Yeah ... it's really important for you to say, "I am not that little, that little boy or that little girl- Yeah

who may have had a traumatic experience. I'm an adult. I deserve to be in the room that I'm in." Um, you're probably pretty smart if you're in that situation, so don't let people intimidate you. And I think oftentimes it's just easier to rely on that voice that says, "No, you're, you have imposter syndrome.

You should not be here. You're, You're out of your league." That's another one we tell ourselves all the time. Right. "You're way out of your league in this situation," which is totally not true. Yeah, not smart enough. Not good enough. All the not enoughs. Yeah. Right? Of, uh, yeah. It reminds me of, I don't know if you heard this, but the, like the, um...

And I, I'm not going to tell it right, but the zookeeper and somebody's coming by, and they're like, "What the heck? These elephants are all tied to these trees with this really thin little skinny rope." And the guy's like, "How are you doing that?" Because those, obviously the elephants are s- way strong enough to break free from that.

What keeps them- Right ... from running away? And he's like, "We've done it since they were little, little." And the elephant, you know, when it was trying to get away then, it was strong enough to hold him, and they just, like, just kept that, "Oh, I can't break free from this. Oh, I must ... I can't break free from this," and then they just stopped trying, right?

They just, that's the belief that they had. Yeah. And I feel like that's what happens with us. It's like the one story that comes up, and then we're like, "Well, that's it. I'm just gonna keep that and keep telling myself that." Like you said, 95% or whatever the percentage is- ... that we're saying the next day, we just do that for 20 and 30 years.

I, I think that is a perfect metaphor of how we listen to this voice. I mean, the voice is really that string. Yeah. And we're tethered to it as children. And of course, it's strong enough when you're a child, but then when you get a, when you become an adult, that string actually becomes like a, a chain. You know, really, we don't- Yeah

we don't resist it. And I think, I mean, that's a really good story. I think I'm gonna steal it, so by the way. Yes, feel free. It's not mine, so. But, you know, but, you know, that's the point, is we have to educate and train ourselves that, wait a minute, this string is not that strong. Wait a minute- Yeah ... I actually could break free.

And I think it's the liberation when we allow ourselves to believe we deserve better, or when we allow ourselves to believe that life will unfold for ourselves. So much of what I teach now, especially, um, to adults all over that are really struggling with addiction, uh, especially, is that once you remove alcohol or drugs or sex or, or food, and you get that be- eh, you have a better relationship with that, you realize that life is life, and you have to live it, and you have to make choices.

Mm-hmm. And so, another thing that I recommend is envision what you want. If you could spend five minutes futurizing, where do I see myself this summer? What would I like to achieve? What would I like to do? And have life come through you instead of happening to you, because guess what? Life will happen. You know it.

You wake up today and you're not feeling very well- Yeah ... or, uh, you know, or you, you know, somebody's getting sick or something. Life will happen. But if you start to imagine what you want from life, you could quite possibly find the ways to obtain it instead of just allowing life to happen to you. It's all about empowering ourselves, and again, it comes down to educating ourselves, and I guess learning to pull on that twine every once in a while, and see if it breaks.

Yeah. I, I like the futurizing because I think- Mm ... we get caught so much and, like, it's really easy for me to tell you what I don't want, what I don't- Yeah ... like, what I'm not liking, what's wrong. But to actually desi- or, you know, thinking of, "Well, what do I actually want it to look like?" I think- And we spend-

clearly a much better path ... a lot of time, we spend a lot of time thinking of what we should have done. Mm-hmm. I should have done this, or I should have done that, and what if I had, you know. And I, and I stop people and say, "It's not about that. We're not going to should all over ourselves," you know? It's not about that.

It's really about thinking the past is the past. Um, and the, it really doesn't define your presence. It really just talks about your personality. In fact, one of the other analogies I like is the reason why your, um, rear view mirror is smaller than your windshield is because where you're going is much more important than where you've been.

And one of my favorite medical mentors says, "It's okay to look back, just don't stare." Mm. I love it. I love that too. I love it. Yeah. But it's true. We spend too much time reflecting on the past and what we should have done- Mm ... or what, or what we could have done better, and that's the trap that I was speaking to earlier.

We want to relive the past to correct it, when that's a trap. It's just more important for you to realize where you are in the present and move forward. You're never gonna correct the past. It's, it's the past. That's very good. That's a good thought, is like, am I trying to correct the past- Mm-hmm ... instead of being just like, "Ugh, it's done."

Which ki- okay, so bringing it- ... really back to the shame, and I wanna dive into the book a little bit, because this is a sort of a cycle that- The person who's jealous gets in, right? I'm jealous. Yeah. I feel it. I act out in some way or I shut down, whatever their response to it is, and then they feel guilty or shame- Mm-hmm

right, um, for being that way, and it just c- continues on this loop, and they stay in it so long that it also drags out. So, like, not only did you do the thing that you and your partner might be arguing about, and then you feel the shame about it, and then you kind of stay stuck there like, "Oh, see?" Yeah. "Oh, this is proving my point.

Why would they want to be with somebody like me?" And it just keeps that going versus bouncing back as quick as possible and going, "I can't stay here becuase I can't fix what I just did." Like... I can't fix that. So how do we kind of move from that and getting through that shame or looking at the shame and saying, "Okay, what is this trying to tell me to do?"

Yeah. It's so easy for us to fall into these shame spirals, and this loop continues. And it is a loop. It's a, it's a loop that many people, including myself, you can't break out of c- because it's, it's ingrained in our brain. We know what's triggering. There's n- there's neuroscience behind this. And so, what happens, like you perfectly, uh, illustrated, somebody gets cheated on.

So, what do you do? You check phones, and then you hate yourself for doing that. Yeah. But then you keep checking the phone because you know you got cheated on. So, there is the spiral. And you know what the... And, and in for many people, it, what the other part of that cycle is involving addiction, where they start to drink to forget or take drugs to forget.

Interestingly enough, and studies have shown this, the worst part of that loop is not the alcohol, is not the fact that you're checking your, the phone. It's the voice in your head that is telling you you're a bad person for doing this. Mm-hmm. That is the most critical part. It's not so much that you're checking the phone, and you feel bad about it, or you reach for a glass of wine because you want to just forget that you did that.

It's the voice that tells you you're a bad person and you deserve this. That's where we need to work on because it's really important. You can step out of it maybe, you know, later on and tell yourself, "What was I doing? Why did I do that? Well, I know why I did that. I got cheated on." Okay. That's information.

Uh, is, do you really think this person is cheating on you? Well, no, but I don't trust him. Well, see, these are the things you need to ask us, and once we're in that s- shame spiral, it's very hard to pull ourselves out. That's why there's so much emphasis on doing work routinely, so that you develop- Mm-hmm

that literacy about, okay, I know what this is. I'm being triggered. I want to check his phone. Okay, what if I don't? You know, the ways of parenting yourself again. And again- Right ... realizing, like, it's the voice that's the worst part, and we are our own worst enemy, without a doubt. Oh, for sure. And that's what I hear all the time, like I'm, I'm stuck in my head.

I, you know, you get sick of yourself after this, like, "Oh my gosh, I'm doing this." So, in your book you talk about COMPASS. That's the- Mm-hmm. The framework ... so are you able to share some or all of that with us? Of like what, what does that stand for? What does that mean? Sure. So, I mentioned earlier that I had been abused, and I went through years of therapy, and it was great.

I really, uh... You could say I was a success. I had great therapists. I, uh, I went to medical school. Everything was going well in my life, and then I wrote a, a men's health book, went on a book tour, and met some friends, and they triggered a memory about my child molester, who was a Scoutmaster. Oh. And I found out that the year after I told and the year, he stepped down, he adopted a boy, wrote a book, and became father of the year.

He was even on the Today Show. Oh my gosh. And so now this is many decades later, so I looked him up- And I called him, and I found out that he had adopted 15 boys with special needs, and there were some of them still in his care. So long story short, I worked with the police. He was brought to trial, and he was brought, he was brought to justice and imprisoned.

Not for what he did to me, obviously. It was late, but what he had been doing to his children. And so that was, uh, the basis for my first real book that I wrote that was a memoir. Now imagine, did a lot of work, spent years on that, came out of it with a success, and I think that's what really made it possible for me to go after him.

What happened is in 2020, as you know, we all went through the COVID pandemic- Mm ... and we were living in isolation. And I felt that everything that had been mooring me together, everything that had been keeping me together- Mm ... was suddenly gone. I didn't have work structure. I didn't... You know, my home life was, we were living in our pajamas.

And I feel that that loss of structure really brought up a lot of that past shame and guilt. And I was also in the process of a class action suit with the Boy Scouts of America, and I had to fill out a very extensive survey. After that happened, I guess you can call it my, uh, rock bottom moment. I said, "I can't live like this.

This is not the way." Yeah. I thought I had figured it all out. I was very upset with myself, and I realized, because I was also working for years with people who had suffered trauma, that it's really about the shame and looking internally at what it's telling you. So, I developed this framework called COMPASS because I felt the shame is actually information.

Mm-hmm. So, if you look at it as a mnemonic, COMPASS is Confronting the shame, understanding what it is and why you're feeling this way, and then Observing it. Observing it in a way that you could really just identify it, and I go through it in the book, but also, I just want to go through this. But M is- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah ... is the Mapping. So, what was the source? Obviously, uh, going back and just understanding, okay, so for me, it was going back to when I was 11 years old. And then there's a process Where you go through, where I go through and I describe the three bodies, which is when I'm experiencing the shame, where is it?

Is it a physical presence in my body? And oftentimes people will say, "I feel a tightness in my chest." Understanding that, not judging yourself for that, then understanding the story behind it. What is it cognitively you're telling yourself? And then if it's, if it's in relationship to anything. So that's the process part.

And then the A is accepted. Now, accept is about integration. It's not about getting past it. It's understanding that you can have empathy for the situation. And when I was in the courthouse with my scout master, you know, watching this take place, and I was seeing a wonderful therapist, I told her later, "I felt bad for him."

And she goes, "That's because you've learned to integrate this. He's still a monster. You're not denying what happened, but you as an adult are looking back now with some distance and saying, 'Okay, I understand, and I've integrated this.'" And in a sense, you're accepting it, but you're not negating that it happened- Right

because your feelings are valid. And then the final two S's are just sustaining, which is learning the literacy, which is what I was alluding to earlier, which is really trying to understand, how do I incorporate all of this in the moment of this person is talking to me in such a way, I'm feeling it, I'm feeling it in my body, I'm understanding this, and learning the literacy of the shame, and that way you can sustain yourself, because, unfortunately, this is not gonna go away.

Yeah. This is something that we will live with. But if, if you understand that it's information, it's better than feeling like, "Well, this is my life and I'm destined to repeat this," and that's just not true. And then finally, the last S is service. Many people, uh, not all, so this is optional, uh, feel that they share their stories in order to help others.

Mm-hmm. And I will tell you this, it's... I did not make-- I did not write this, but I wish I had, and I believe it was Brene Brown who's done a lot of work in shame, and she said that shame is, lives in a Petri dish, I think, with- in, uh, in isolation. So essentially, people who feel shame isolate and they withdraw, and alcohol is a perfect frenemy, because if you're drinking, you're isolating even more.

The only antidote to shame is to be present in community. So, coming here, speaking to you and your audience, listening to this, that is sharing, and they're listening, and they're active listening. And only when you do that do you really understand that I'm not alone, I didn't bring this on myself, and I deserve better.

Oh my gosh. I have so much to say. Yeah, go ahead. One, I hate that you went through that, so I'm so sorry. Oh, thank you. I also Like that you shared, like this is not really something that's, that just goes away. And I think that's important for people to understand. Like, there is improvement for sure, and you can live differently.

But it might be something that you always have to work on in some way, right? becauseI think people have the misconception that- Mm ... uh, you know, do the work and then everything is better and I'm all better. And I think that that almost sometimes could hinder people's progress- Exactly. Right ... if that's their expectation.

So, I love it. I mean, that's, it's, it's what we have- Right ... to understand is this is something that may just have to be worked on, but we can get better at it. It can get easier. It, it can then turn to this thing where you help other people. I've said it so many times. Right. Even though I am helping and I coach people on jealousy and insecurity in their relationships, the more I talk about it, the better I get too.

Yeah, exactly. And getting them to talk about it. Right. Like, talk about it, it feels better, right? Right. No, I, I say that all the time with clients. I say, "This is bi-directional. I'm getting just as much out of it as you are." And it's really, um... It's, I learn something from my clients all the time, and I'm sure you do too.

Yes. And I'm sure from your, from your listeners. But what you said is very, very important. There is no magic wand. Uh, I am not going to say ever that if you read my book, The Same Compass, your life will change- Yeah ... and you will be- Yeah ... you know, cured. There is no cure. It's like you said, it's work. And I think we throw that word a lot, around a lot, but it's the truth.

And I think it becomes easier to manage. Certainly, you become less critical of yourself. Mm-hmm. And you start to build confidence. One of the most important things about infidelity or jealousy is that it leaches you of your confidence. You start to say to yourself, "Well, I'm not pretty enough." And I, you know, I did-- I knew your audience, so I did some research and I'm gonna give you some facts.

Maybe you wanna play along with it. Oh, I love it. Yeah. Yes, let's hear it. So, so when you think about women in relationship to shame, one of the critical things that they feel the most shame about is, can you guess the number one and number two? Take a guess. That they feel the most shame about? About. About.

Hmm. Well, they're, I know they're most critical with their looks- Oh, yeah. And- Body image and weight. Yeah. Number one, body image and weight. Women are most critical and most shameful about their body image. And also, the second, which is always really interesting, motherhood and infertility or fertility.

Women are very much, uh, feel very shameful about this. And the other thing that really is important is this comes from not just one particular person, but it could come from the way you were brought up by your family, the expectations. Mm-hmm. Certainly, the expectations the media and culture impose upon women to be athletic even after they have the baby and running with the stroller.

Yeah. Or what's wrong with you if you can't get pregnant, and why aren't you going through in vitro? All of that. And then there's also religion and traditions that normalize behavior like sitting around a table at Thanksgiving and having it all, which is another panacea. And then what I also found was interesting when I was looking this up for you is that the mommy culture, going to drop off your kids at school, and you being the mother that works, or you being the single mom.

There is a lot of inherent bias about that from other women, and sometimes women don't even realize they're doing it to each other, but they do. And so, when you think of that in relationship to what you were saying earlier, you're being inundated all the time with sort of shame, things to be shameful about.

And so, the, the book really teaches you, listen, the way you have to navigate your life moving forward is understanding that this may be an activator, understanding that really what you're concerned about is that you are living in a misalignment with what are your core values. And so, if you can take away something today, I recommend for everybody to do this exercise, and we do this at the beginning of all of our group sessions.

Write down three things that you hold dear, and those are your core values. And they can change. So let, let's say for me, I, I, I like loyalty, I, I like compassion, and I like kindness. Those are... I just randomly picked three. Whenever you feel misaligned or you're telling yourself something about shame or an incident- Mm-hmm

that happened, think about it in relationship to how is this misaligned to those core values I hold dear? I'm not that person. I'm a kind person. I believe kindness is a choice. And when you break it down, I know it, it is work, but it will help- bring you to this moment instead of spiraling you back to when you were a child and you didn't fit in the uniform or- Right

you know, the other girls had blonde hair, and you didn't. Yeah. You know, it, it, it is very easy for us to go back into that cascade as if a, it's a domino effect. But it does take work, and you're right, it's, it's possibly ongoing work. It... Just think of yourself as a, a home you have to keep up, and it's worth the investment.

You just, like, pow! ... something in my brain when you were giving the stats about... So, I knew the looks and the body image- Right ... was going to be number one. You just connected dots for me, though- Mm ... in what I see with my own clients of the parenthood thing, with women especially. And I just, as soon as you said that I had this-

image of, like, oh my gosh. It's like for the whole beginning of our lives, it's looks. Yeah. That constantly, like, as little girls, "Oh, she's so cute. Oh, she's this," and you gotta be the cute little girl with the pigtails. And then you, as you get in school, it's like compar- And then that's really harsh, right?

All the girls are comparing to each other. Right. Then you hit motherhood- ... and it's like, oh, now we're that whole period of time. And then as we get perimenopause, menopause- ... it's back to looks. "Oh, my looks have failed my life." You know what I mean? I just... And that felt horrible, uh, for all- Yeah ... the women in that moment.

And I'm sure guys have their own version, but yeah. Men do have their own version, and the other ones, I'm gonna read them off to you. So, body image, motherhood, and fertility, very important. Sexuality and desire. Not, so- Mm ... so you have the motherhood component, and then you have the component where you're in relationship with your spouse or your better half or your partner.

So, what does that look like when you're not romantic? And we're not even talking about, you know, intercourse. We're talking about just romance and being desired. Yeah. And then aging, like you brought up. Perimenopausal, menopausal. And then there are just things that happen in general. Mental health struggles.

Yeah. People who have mental health struggles are often very critical of themselves because they think they brought it on. Certainly, substance use with alcohol and other substances. Another one I thought was interesting, career ambition. Mm. Imagine a woman. I want to have a great body. I want to have kids. I wanna be...

And then I gotta have a career. I mean, you... I mean, it's, it's so much burden that we put on the expectations for women. And then certainly financial dependence. Uh, dealing with trauma and assault. Oh. Like, that is always a source of shame. Uh, and then this is another one of my favorite, uh, feeling like you're too much.

Have you ever had clients that say- Oh ... "People think I'm too much"? Yeah. And they... Do you know what one client said to me? When anybody says to me, I'm too much, you know what I say? "Go get less." I love it. I love- I love it ... I'm stealing that, okay? Because you're never too much. You're enough. Yeah. And then- Yeah

and then other, and the last one is just relationship status. You know, some women feel very shameful that they choose to be alone. Yeah. Imagine that. I don't want to be in a relationship. I'm better off alone. We can't- Mm-hmm ... fathom that because who are you without a man? Yeah. I mean, and that's what everyone wants to do.

I assume you're dating. Are you looking for someone? Are you... Like, why are, why would you be single? And then why, why aren't you? Yeah. What's wrong with you that you're not in a relationship? What's wrong with you? I'm sure after a certain age we do it to men, too. Like, oh, guys are in there- Oh, no. Men have- You know

men have very similar. I just wanted to make sure I found the ones that were specific to women becuase I knew your audience. But- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... but one and two, body image and motherhood infertility. Number one and two, which is, you know, obviously men have their own about being the man of the house and being respected- Mm-hmm

and the burden of that. But also, body image is part of that sexuality. But we really... When you tease out that second one, motherhood infertility, I had no idea. And it was so funny because I began to listen to conversations with people at work, and the concern of having a baby or not being able to get pregnant, I hear it constantly.

And I think, wow, that's got to be so much pressure. Pressure. Yeah. At a time when you're... Like, when you- if you're trying to conceive, right- Yeah, exactly ... the last thing is to feel pressure- You don't want to be ... and stressed and all of the... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like when they say- Yeah ... you need to calm down and then you'll get pregnant.

How am I going to calm down if I want to get pregnant? Right. Right. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, talk about a loop. Well, thank you so much for sharing those with us. That's fantastic. And like I said, you just, like, opened my mind up- ... to something that I had not connected dots on yet, so. I'll s- I'll send you this document.

Yes. You will find it fun. I'd love it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Oh, my gosh. Dr. Frank Spinelli, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. I really enjoyed the conversation. I know that, um, the audience is going to get a lot from this. If they wanted to reach out to you or follow you, where should they go to do that?

Oh, I have a, a website at frankspinelli.com. I'm on all social media. Uh, yeah, it's very easy to find me. Just Google me and I'm sure I'll come up somewhere. Okay. And will you share your, the name of the book so people can go and- The book is called- ... grab the book ... The Shame Compass, and it's available right now.

Awesome. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you for having me. It was wonderful.